Comments for Week of June 20 2004


	Welcome to CS1315. Click on the python to add comments. Looking for the book? They have it at the Engineer's Bookstore at 748 Marietta St NW. Here is there website: http://www.engrbookstore.com/ - Monica

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Comments for Week of June 20 2004

I'm finding making my website frustrating... blah

Please, if I can help you out at all or if you're having trouble, let me know. I love webpages! Nicole Seekely

Maybe it's just me.. but last week's breakout session on HTML said it was going to focus on XHTML... and it really didn't. It didn't explain the different levels of XHTML(and their different DOCTYPES). HTML is something from the old days of the web, and XHTML is preparing for the future of the web, so focusing on XHTML is the right idea, but just saying we're going to do it and not do it is something really hypocritical to me. For example, in "The Simplest Web Page"- it declares a HTML 4.01 DOCTYPE. Why not a XHTML DOCTYPE? If you really want to get down to it.. at least show what valid XHTML is and how to code it. Elements like font and attributes like color and size aren't even defined in XHTML, so why use them?

I'm not dissing KK at all. I'm just saying XHTML would be more beneficial to all of us; XHTML is coding HTML in a way that just about any device(ie cell phones, PDAs, tablet PCs) that can access the internet can access a webpage and make it look decent. Perhaps it would be best if last week's breakout was on XHTML and this week's breakout would be on something like CSS. It's really not that hard to learn. I went from a page fully coded in poor quality HTML and changed it into a XHTML 1.1 validated page in less than a day. The next day I added CSS(and gave the viewer of my page a choice of seven different colors btw). XHTML is cutting-edge stuff, even big companies aren't using it yet. All the instructors have done a marvelous job teaching the material, and I wish I could have had this course as a freshman instead of re-taking CS as a senior. #22

The HTML you're learning is XHTML. In HTML, you say <br>. In XHTML, you say <br /> Yes, we could spend time on CSS and full XHTML, but that's not the point of the class. The focus of the class is on learning computation and programming. CSS and XHTML don't offer a lot of lessons about computing. Instead, we learn enough XHTML so that we can then write Python programs to create and manipulate XHTML. We can't teach you everything about anything in this class. Instead, we're trying to teach you enough that you can teach yourself the depth of whatever you need. After learning some XHTML in CS1315, we hope that picking up CSS or validated XHTML IS easy. Mark Guzdial

Let me guess KK is your breakout instructor. All she does it get up there and talk about whatever she wants to. She has no idea what the class is doing and subsequently no way of helping us with our homeworks and labs. She even admitted to our breakout that she was learning everything about a day or two ahead of us. Why can't Larry teach the breakouts? It is obvious that he makes the quizes and tests. His name is even on JES when you start it up. It would be one thing if Georgia Tech didn't have the resources of good intructors, but they do. Our book features a picture of the authors wife in almost every example, wow is that professional. The way this course is put together is a joke and I will be glad when I am through with it.

First ... Yes, I did make the first Quiz, after that though, you have professor Sweat to thank for the next two. No, I did not make any exams. Exam writing is done by a group of three of us, KK, Prof. Sweat, and myself. Same thing goes with the Take Home Exams. Also, Prof. Guzdial's "lack of professionalism" made this course possible. In all honesty, you should thank him that you aren't taking CS I with the engineers or CS folks. That is not to say that this is any easier of a class, it isn't. The difference is the way material is approached. It is taken from a perspective of see and touch and do something real as opposed to dealing with abstractions.

As for KK, last I checked she is following the same schedule as the rest of us and doing things that are pertinent to what we are learning. She is doing an amazing job this semester. She is researching, presenting her research, having her first go at teaching a class like this, teaching more classes than she is supposed to be, and trying her darndest to make 1315 interesting in her half of breakout. That said, the only way that she can improve her teaching style is by getting feedback from you. However, it does no good to say ... blah blah blah this reeks blah blah blah i dont like this blah ... what we need are ideas on what you would like to see done or on how you would like to see things done. Also, KK's job is not to go over homeworks or labs with you. Her job is to present you with an hour long lecture of new material. The TA's job is to go over labs and things like that with you. Comments? Questions? I can go on ... Larry Olson

The point of the class isn't to be "professional," it's to be "inviting." There's actually a group at U-Colorado at Boulder studying this class who believe that my use of my family in the pictures is actually helping to reduce the stress of computer science. As for the XHTML vs. HTML – that's quite astute of you to note that DOCTYPE! Yes, we're using the transitional DOCTYPE which allows for BOTH HTML and XHTML. That way, if you make mistakes in the HTML, the browser is more forgiving. The strict XHTML DOCTYPE is strictly enforced by some browsers – any mistakes get bounced. The transitional form is easier to start learning with. The focus of this class is to get you started programming and learning computing in as motivating and friendly a manner as we can. If it's not moving fast enough or as rigorous enough for you, then you're really in the wrong class – you should be in 1321 or 1371 instead. Mark Guzdial

I just want to put in my two cents... I think that's great that you, Craig, have such a want to learn more of XHTML, etc. I would have to agree, XHTML is the way to go, and I personally which I could take an entire class on just web authoring (XHTML, CSS, etc.). I think Prof. Guzdial already said what I would say... the class is more of an introduction to all thse elements so that you can study further indepth on your own in a somewhat easier fashion.

As for the anonymous poster ranting about the class... Although you do happen to see alot of his wife and family in the book and in class, I think it helps with the atmosphere of the class. As Professor Guzdial said, it is inviting and actually helps the class be less intimidating. And if you are just plain sick of seeing the same pictures, K.K. and others have asked on numerous occasions for other pictures to be included in lecture.

And I think K.K. does a great job of breaking down the concepts into understandable terms; she knows what she's talking about. With regards to break-outs, we've had several great ideas and different methods to help out students and teach concepts but there is never any class participation. K.K. is not there to help you with your homework, lab, etc. That's what I and the rest of the T.A.s are here for. If you're having trouble, ask during the 45 min. of breakout time you are given or go to office hours or e-mail a T.A. or talk to them through AIM. I know I'm around all the time available to help anyone out as much as I can. Nicole Seekely

My main point was that Larry is much more knowledgeable in JES than KK. Why can’t we have the best when it is available? It is unfair for the class to have a second rate instructor when better quality is there. It is very obvious that this is KK's first time teaching. While I do feel that it is important to be patient and give her a chance. It is also important to not force 2/3 of the class to be guinea pigs. While the other gets first rate instruction from Monica. Monica has done a great job. Larry created JES. KK learns the material two days ahead of the class. How can it be fair to us for KK to be involved in making the exam? Monica and the TA's know how to do the homework, what makes KK exempt? If you are qualified to teach the course then you should have a strong grasp of everything involved, not just the bare minimum.
KK has a lot on her plate. So do I and the others in the class. When final grades come will my grade have an asterisk that says I took 4 other classes and did not have the best instruction in breakout? No, it won't. There is no excuse for KK's lack of ability/time in teaching us. Subsequently we will not have an excuse for having her as an instructor.

Just so you know, I, KK, am officially the instructor for all three breakouts now, and I have been since the first week of class. So, everyone is getting the same breakout instructor. Yikes folks. Studies on math instruction have shown that it's actually better for learners to see mistakes that are like those that a learner is likely to make. If you don't make any mistakes, then the mistakes that I make must not be helping you, but they are probably helping someone out there who is having a hard time using JES. Though people are defending me by saying that I'm pretty busy and doing a lot these days, I'd rather not hide behind excuses. However, there is one excuse I will offer that I think makes sense... this is the first time I'm hearing any complaints about my teaching in particular, and I only wish you had spoken up sooner and offered up some ideas about how to make things better. I'm not exempt from knowing how to do the homework, but if you have very specific questions, you really could email them to me or a TA, and we would look at them. I don't prepare a lecture related to the homework before class usually, but if you email me a question that you'd like me to answer in breakout, I will do my best to do that. If you don't trust my knowledge of the homework, then I suppose you would ask a TA or Monica instead. More power to you. I really do want you to get the best instruction and experience that you can. There are lots of resources available to you as part of this class, so I would suggest trying to take advantage of that. I hope that these comments pages will continue to be a source of ideas for how we could all get more out of this class. -K.K. Lamberty

KK I am in your break-out session and I think you are a fine instructor. I hate that you are only hearing feedback from this one angry kid. You obviously know what you are talking about, and I think it does help me to watch you troubleshoot occasionally. I would have never posted that b/c I didn't think to, but I just didn't want you to think you are not doing a good job b/c one person that has no tact is posting to this page. So far, I have really enjoyed the entire course. I don't know much about computers and so this a great class for me to learn some basics. If this person is so interested in more advanced aspects of programming, etc...he/she could just take a more advanced class. As for myself, and I'm sure many others that haven't taken the time to post, I think this is an excellent course and that you are doing everything just fine KK.

Also I think it's important to add that this is a class, like the scheme course, which is meant to teach how to learn a language, not specifically to learn this language. I'm sure KK has had ample experience in learning languages :) which is the most important part of this class. Monica clearly pointed out to us a couple of weeks ago when she taught the break-out session that the most important thing was why something happened not just how to go through the motions. I don't think people take break-out seriously and therefore don't prepare for it. I know sometimes I don't read before and that makes it hard for me to ask questions because I don't want to look stupid. As I noted in a previously posted rant I really liked it when we walked through the code as a class, although it did put people on the spot. Also, I've gotten help from Larry several times and he tends to make about as many errors helping me as K.K. does in class. Christine Dehn

Lab 4 is hard and kind of time consuming. For all the other asignments we have atleast a week. Why don't we have a week for this assignment to me due? Why is it due Friday and not Monday? IN the past we had several assignments which were easy and non time consuming and we still had one week to do it? why not this one? any change of lab4 being due please?

I am trying to schedule a trip... do we have anything due or and exam the after the 25th of july? the syllabus lists two power point lectures but it doesnt say anything about a final exam or hw or a lab being due that week. So will we just be reviewing those slides that week?

That week IS finals week. You WILL have a final during that time period sometime. The lecture slides that were listed there were just a side effect of attaching some fresh ppt slides to the CoWeb. They have been removed. Larry Olson

Everyone can answer this... how many students usually show up in breakout? In mine at most there are ten. From my own personal conversations atleast half of those that show up ask why am I here she is not teaching me anything. Also, from talking with some students in the group that has given up on breakout they know that their time is best not spent in breakout because they will not learn anything. In any course you can expect attendance to decline throughout the semester. Why is it if breakout is just another lecture there are at least 3 times as many students in the lecture with Monica than all the breakouts combined with KK? The answer is Monica is a better instructor. All I want is the best if it is available that is what we deserve and what we pay for. Monica and Larry make mistakes everyone makes mistakes… at least they know what they are doing wrong and do not have to ask a TA what is wrong. We would be better off if the TA’s taught. They know the program better than KK plain and simple. Don’t force us be a subject in this experiment to determine if KK can teach or not any longer.

Regardless of how you feel could you be respectful of other people. You'll find that your opinion will be considered more seriously if you do so

Students don't usually show up for breakout becuase they don't take breakout seriously. Breakout is a new system, and is unlike recitations are in other CS and Math classes. Most people don't realize this and thus treat it the same as a recitation. As for KK, she is a first-time instructor. If you hadn't noticed, they didn't make her the course instructer, just breakout. Everyone has to start somewhere. This way she gets to learn how to teach, and you still have access to Monica, an experienced professor. If you are not understanding the material taught in breakout, you can feel free to go to Monica in her office hours and ask her to help you understand it, if you feel she can do a better job at it. You are not being denied the best instruction possible. And you are also paying for the instructor's office hours, as well as the TAs office hours. Use them. If you are not going to them, you have no basis for complaining that you are not getting what you pay for. And, in case you didn't know this, some of the TAs have also never taught before, and some never took this class. So there are TAs that are also in the same position as KK, but TAs teach two at a time, so they can help eachother. KK teaches alone, and so has no help. Her asking a TA for a little help is no different than a TA asking another TA for help, but you aren't complaining about that. If these TAs that you think are so much better had to get up and teach all alone, you'd be having the same complaints about them.

I'm happy to take into account some of these comments in the upcoming breakout sessions... I'm hearing that you'd like me to come to class better prepared to answer questions related to the assignments that you are doing and that you'd like me to try to make the breakout sessions more worth your while. I think that one way to do this would actually be to have you, the students, work on some code in groups and we could go over it together. I found that for those students who stayed to review for the midterm, we were able to uncover a lot of confusion people were having _before_ the exam. It's probably hard for students to know what is going to be hard or what to ask if they aren't trying these things as we go over them. However, to stop asking the TAs or class to help me look at the code I'm writing in front of the class would not make sense. Everyone needs to be able to find mistakes in their code, but there's no reason to not ask everyone to help solve the problems when we're in class and we want to keep moving. If I was at home, I would do it myself, but for your sake, I ask for help so that things can move along. When I said that I am preparing a day or two ahead of class, I don't mean that I'm learning how to code at that point. I know how to write code. What I'm figuring out is exactly how it works in JES and how to show you what to do. It's not my goal to make you test subjects, and I'm sorry that at least one of you feels that way. I hope that you'll continue to post questions you have about the course, comments about what you like or dislike, and especially ideas about what you'd like to see happening (not "throw out KK", but more like, "KK, I'm frustrated that... I'd like to see..." ). I am sincerely interested in making this material as accessible and enjoyable to you as possible. Tell me how I can help. -K.K. Lamberty

I just wanted to say that I really find my breakout session helpful. There has never been a time that I have gone and thought it was a waste of my time. KK, I think you present and explain the material we cover very well.

I just wanted to say that I think KK is doing a great job teaching too. Everyone is human... so I dont understand why someone expects anyone to be perfect. Thanks for making this class interesting, I enjoy learning this stuff. Also, thanks to all the TA's for always being so helpful, I know that you all have your own lives (altho some students dont think so)

does anyone know what day the final exam will be...and if we are not in town for it could we take it the week before?

look at oscar it'll tell you, probably can't take it before though unless it's on some type of official school business

First, I'd like to say that it's really immature, I think, to be criticizing our TAs and Professors on how they teach the class. You really can't say anything because you obivously aren't an expert on the course youself if you're seeking their help in the first place. Hell, if you think KK isn't doing such a great job, why don't you get up there and teach the material yourself? KK has a life other than coming to Tech every Tuesday, so I'm not condemning her for not being prepared some days or not knowing exactly how to relate the material in a way we'd understand. And if you have a problem with Prof. Guzdial using his wife's pictures as examples, don't buy the book, don't use the resources in the folder, use your own. Just deal with it.

Anyways, I had a question...what's the username and password for attaching to CoWeb?

Attach is username and carmen is password Nicole Seekely

Whoa, ya'll...I was like hmmm...I think I'll check out the comments for this week.

Yikes. That seems to have been a mistake.

In any case, I do feel compelled to say something. I am genuinely enjoying this class and the way it is taught. Yes, for those of you who are the quintessential Tech student I'm sure this is a walk in the park for you, but for those of you who think that your lack of stellar grades is due to KK or your TA, you are greatly mistaken.

I wonder...has the dude (sexually uniform use of the word 'dude') actually taken the time to read the book? Because it's plain black and white crystal clear in the book. If you have problems understanding something and you've done everything in your power to try and look for the answers yourself, then I'm sorry that you're having trouble. However, the professors and TA's have done an amazing job of making sure that we know that they are available to help us if we need it...either by way of office hours or even AIM! Gimme a break! Does it get any easier to get help that that?!

However, if you're whining that no one knows what they're talking about, and you happen to have failed to take the initiative to try and READ and (gasp) LEARN the material yourself, then please spare all of us the freaking complaining.

KK, you're so sweet and I think you're super. Don't let the opinion of a few people be the voice of the whole.

Man! I just wanted to see if there was anything promoting controversy on the announcements page this week. I guess I hit an artery.

what is the lock password for uploading the webpage...(after you type in attach and carmen)?

You shouldnt need one. Lock passwords are individual to the user. If you havent set one yourself, then you shouldnt need to use one. Unless someone has locked your webpage without your permisson. If that is the case, Email me your Name or a link to your Who's Who page, and Ill unlock it. Larry Olson

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Comment Areas-Summer 2004 last edited on 31 January 2006 at 3:57 am by r80h18.res.gatech.edu